This is a recording of a latest Twitter Spaces dialog about utilizing bitcoin to get humanitarian help to the individuals of Ukraine.
Listen To This Twitter Spaces:
Transcript.
[0:07] CK: Hey, how’s it going, Gleb?
[0:09] Gleb Naumenko: Not so dangerous. Mostly again to work at this level with the Bitcoin stuff. But additionally, yeah, that is it.
[0:18] CK: Yeah. Of course, that is a sensitive query nowadays. We’re glad to have you ever on. Definitely excited to study a bit bit extra about Bitcoin and the way it has been a power with what you’ve got been experiencing. I do know that Gladstein is becoming a member of right here momentarily. I simply need to give a fast shout-out to the oldsters listening.
This is the Bitcoin Magazine Spaces. We’re going to be masking Bitcoin in Ukraine and go extra in-depth into Alex Gladstein’s latest article, “Currency of Last Resort,” which was revealed in Bitcoin Magazine final week and closely featured Gleb and different Ukrainian Bitcoiners’ tales. So, actually enthusiastic about that.
I additionally need to give a shout-out to Bitcoin 2023. Presale tickets are on sale now. More particulars might be launched shortly and ticket costs might be going up with these particulars. So, in case you’re going to go to the convention regardless of the place it is, and what time of yr it is, get your tickets now. VIP, in addition to GA tickets, are obtainable.
Hopefully, Gladstein jumps in right here momentarily. But, yeah, that is it for me proper now. I’m going to go seize Gladstein’s article and throw it up right here within the nest.
All proper and with that good timing from Gladstein. So, he simply joined. Hey, how’s it going, Alex?
[1:52] Alex Gladstein: It’s nice.
[1:53] CK: We obtained you. We obtained Gleb. We’re prepared to begin.
[1:55] Alex: Awesome. Gleb, are you able to hear me, my buddy?
[1:57] Gleb: Yeah.
[1:58] Alex: That’s nice. Well, look, final week, we spoke to a buddy who was within the Central African Republic, one other warfare zone and we had to engineer a means to converse. It seems like your web’s higher however in case you run into any points, CK might be comfortable to MacGyver one thing for you. But, anyway, we’ll get began. Thank you all a lot for coming. I simply wished to present a quick overview after which we’ll get into it with Gleb as a result of we actually need to hear from him.
Basically, my takeaway from doing 5 months of analysis and writing for my essay, “Currency of Last Resort,” which explores the tales of Ukrainian and Russian Bitcoin customers is that this geopolitical second makes Bitcoin’s international utility as a humanitarian instrument plain. I imply, you’d have to be so ignorant and the one phrase to describe it might be ignorant. I imply, the way in which that folks are utilizing Bitcoin proper now in Ukraine and Russia, the place they do not actually produce other choices and we are able to speak about steady cash as properly right here particularly Tether, however the way in which that folks are utilizing, as an instance these 2 devices, is simply so clear and apparent.
It would take loads of head within the sand mentality to deny Bitcoin’s humanitarian utility at this level. I do know that I wrote a complete guide concerning the million other ways individuals are utilizing this factor all all over the world. But I am unable to actually consider a extra vivid rationalization for why we want Bitcoin than the monetary issues individuals are having within the time of warfare when this is the final resort when they don’t have anything else.
So, the essay explores the story of Gleb right here, who we’ll get to speak to, which is superior. He’s a Bitcoin developer. He’s at present in Ukraine. It explores the story of a man named Aleksey, who is a Crimean Bitcoin educator who runs the world’s largest Russian language Bitcoin academic web site. He’s at present dwelling in Lugansk, which is at present a battle zone that is claimed by Russian separatists within the jap a part of Ukraine.
I additionally interviewed Anna Chekhovich who’s the Financial Director for Alexei Navalny’s Anti-Corruption Foundation in Russia. All 3 of those individuals, clearly Bitcoin’s like an enormous a part of their lives in several methods. I am going into that within the story.
I additionally obtained an opportunity to do loads of different backgrounds, clearly, and I spoke to the Ukrainian authorities together with mainly the official who is in control of the concept of doing a cryptocurrency fundraiser and simply studying from him about what their imaginative and prescient was and just a few superb info like the truth that they raised $20 million within the first 48 hours of doing that fundraiser earlier than any cash had are available from another nation.
Again, these information and realities are simply plain at this level. You actually have to be together with your head within the sand to deny the utility of this, it was my principal takeaway from doing this essay and I used to be very privileged to give you the chance to work with Bitcoin Magazine. So, thanks, CK and workforce.
So, we’ll hear from Gleb. I assume, Gleb, possibly we’ll begin with simply your perspective on the way it’s going for you and your perception from what’s taking place in Ukraine extra broadly. Then we are able to get into your reference to Bitcoin and the way it has been helpful for you and the way you’ve got used it to assist individuals proper now. So, go forward, my buddy.
[5:51] Gleb: Well, to give some context from the essay and usually, this invasion was an enormous shock for me regardless of all my American and Western mates telling me to depart the nation and asking me what I’m going to do. It was an surprising case. I’d be serving to with some stuff domestically nevertheless it was not possible to predict.
I gave an interview every week in the past earlier than the invasion to some hacker-related journal about Bitcoin and dissidents and the way it presumably may assist the warfare. I used to be serious about one thing totally different. I used to be Kazakhstan. I do not even keep in mind what occurred there. Some riots or some, yeah, there was a 2-day energy outage the place individuals could not use banks and they would have to discover money or promote their automobiles to simply purchase meals as a result of they could not withdraw cash from their financial institution accounts.
So, I used to be considering and can determine how to arrange a Bitcoin over the radio if we’ve got some bother like that to keep the change of products on the bottom to change meals for Bitcoin or one thing. So, that was completely not what occurred in the long run as a result of someway we’ve got good web, we’ve got electrical energy virtually in all places besides the precise entrance line the place there could possibly be an influence outage or the territories which are at present occupied by Russian They shut down the web there to translate their propaganda.
My story ended up being completely totally different. I relocated on the third day to the most secure place in Ukraine so I could not assist a lot with my fingers. I could not truly carry individuals or drive or do a lot bodily assist however I posted on Twitter to my Bitcoin followers that I’d fundraise some and take a look at to manage some logistics and supply with the availability chains which obtained destroyed. Bitcoin went fairly properly. We fundraised for Bitcoin over the primary week and for the subsequent couple of months, I’ve been spending Bitcoin, after the Bitcoin Magazine article about my work. So, we have been slowly distributing that by driving medical provides, shopping for them, driving meals, and shopping for mattresses. So [crosstalk]…
[8:42] Alex: And Gleb, you instructed me that it modified as a result of, within the first few days or hours after the invasion, issues have been legitimately collapsed when it comes to the funds, monetary infrastructure or simply getting fundamental items. But then possibly a couple of weeks later, issues began to change and desires grew elsewhere. You’re mainly telling me that in these first few days or even weeks or no matter, it was very useful to give you the chance to use Bitcoin to make a cost to somebody in Poland for a automotive that you simply wanted to purchase to carry stuff in, for instance, proper?
[9:17] Gleb: Well, yeah. There’s loads of stuff. For the primary couple of weeks, even the grocery shops weren’t working within the capital of Ukraine. Well, there was a scarcity. There have been 2 hours traces for meals. So, we had to drive our personal automobiles from Western Ukraine to the capital simply to ship some compressed meals to be environment friendly. There are loads of tales like that. Yes, we managed to pay for automobiles to do the supply in Poland as a result of all of the automobiles in Ukraine have been both already used or despatched to the entrance and destroyed by the military. There are other ways I used Bitcoin to fundraise, to fund my means to assist.
[10:09] Alex: Maybe you would assist describe to the individuals right here the little historical past of the forex of Ukraine, the hryvnia, and the way it hasn’t been notably steady over the past decade. It’s misplaced loads of worth. And when the warfare broke out, mainly, the federal government instructed me that one of many the explanation why Ukraine is a top-five nation on the earth when it comes to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency adoption is as a result of loads of the large monetary platforms did not make it to Ukraine or did not service Ukraine and mainly doing any form of worldwide switch commerce was at all times like a nightmare or troublesome. So, the federal government instructed me that that was one of many causes they seen why issues like Bitcoin turned standard as a result of individuals are simply fed up with the system. I think about that issues solely obtained a lot, a lot worse after the invasion, proper?
[10:59] Gleb: Yeah. Well, in what is it? Eight years in the past via the dictator, the forex collapsed 3 occasions, 3X down as a result of they mainly used all of the gold reserves. When they have been thrown out, the price range had lower than 1 million {dollars} for 40 million nation individuals, which is definitely not sufficient to keep even a few days of… I do not know. [inaudible]
[11:27] Alex: So, you are saying only for the viewers, in 2014…
[11:32] Gleb: Yeah.
[11:32] Alex: When Putin’s forces took Crimea, the hryvnia collapsed from some unit, some quantity of hryvnia shopping for you 100 {dollars} to rapidly solely shopping for you $33. Like it, mainly, devalued by 2/3, proper? In a fast span.
[11:49] Gleb: Yeah, precisely.
[11:49] Alex: Right. So, think about Americans and Europeans within the west of Ukraine have not actually skilled that shortly, in a very long time. So, that is a really vivid latest reminiscence from Ukrainians and I feel helps clarify why the nation was so prepared to discover digital options. I assume we may put it that means. Also, it wasn’t as simple, I assume, from what I perceive for you guys to make worldwide funds and commerce and issues like that as it might be for, as an instance, somebody dwelling in California to somebody dwelling in New York, proper?
[12:09] Gleb: Yeah, completely. PayPal is one thing we have been ready for, in all probability. I keep in mind 10 years in the past, my buddy is attempting to promote some handmade toys. She was making it to Americans and she or he could not settle for the cost as a result of we can not use PayPal. We can spend however we can not obtain. So, that was taking place for 10 years and who is aware of why that by no means occurred. Maybe, the Ukrainian regulation is onerous. Maybe PayPal does not belief us. Nobody actually knew however individuals obtained to settle for all these small funds.
[13:01] Alex: Well, the irony simply to pause for a second is that loads of the founding individuals who created corporations like PayPal, whether or not it is like Levchin or individuals who created apps like WhatsApp, Jan Koum, or no matter, Ukrainians have been so omnipresent and in all places. Let’s say the broader world’s tech scene and the IT scene in Silicon Valley, they’ve been actually outsized in their presence and actually a world power. Yet none of this monetary expertise was or not loads of it wasn’t linked. How do you clarify that?
[13:35] Gleb: I’d completely anticipate these guys, the Ukrainian forms, and Putin to do with them. I imply for the context, we have been attempting to carry Ikea to Ukraine for five years and they could not as a result of they would have to pay a bribe on each step, mainly. Like you are going to have an enormous constructing, you pay a bribe. Well, issues have been higher, issues have been getting significantly better after the final 2 elections, for the final 8 years.
[14:07] Alex: So mainly, it is in all probability useful to simply do a really quick recap. What we’re describing right here is that there is this legacy of corruption on this nation which is a results of the final hundred years of historical past which was… I strive to go into this in my essay however simply horrific depredations on the individuals, insane famines, genocides occupations, and enslavement. We’re speaking about thousands and thousands of individuals transferring this manner, transferring to that means, despatched to Germany despatched to Kazakhstan, killed, starved and this had a huge effect on the nation from a perspective of management and entrepreneurialism, clearly.
It obtained so dangerous that in 1986 on the very finish of the entire Soviet experiment, the world’s largest nuclear catastrophe occurred in Ukraine and the individuals of Ukraine weren’t allowed to even learn about it. They discovered later after this radioactive cloud handed via Kyiv and all this stuff. Plenty of this led to the downfall of the Soviet Union and Ukraine performed an enormous position within the downfall of the Soviet Union, truly. The Bravery of the individuals to rise up and select Independence was one of many key issues which led to the downfall of the entire thing. But sadly for Ukraine, the liberty that they obtained had main downfalls. When they turned their personal nation, they weren’t used to being their personal nation economically and they went via an financial interval within the ’90s that was worse than the United States Great Depression of the Nineteen Thirties. Just as you checked out GDP, agricultural or industrial output, if you have a look at Ukraine from ’91 to ’97 or ’98 throughout that decade, Ukraine mainly collapsed economically. The similar means that the United States did within the Nineteen Thirties. So a lot in order that by the tip of the 90s, half of Ukrainians did not have sufficient meals to eat.
Then the individuals who dragged Ukraine out of this have been very corrupt. I imply that they had metal. Two of the 5 largest metal crops on the earth are in Ukraine. In truth, the most important one on the earth is at present being occupied by Russians in Mariupol. They used heavy business that was arrange by the Soviets and they managed to generate an export financial system that… It did transfer the financial system ahead. I imply, it wasn’t nice nevertheless it was higher than the 90s. The hryvnia had 2500% hyperinflation within the mid-Nineties, only for context. So issues improved however corruption stays massively omnipresent.
Basically, the earlier 3 leaders, properly together with Poroshenko however even simply go earlier than that, in case you regarded on the first post-Soviet chief, you checked out Yushchenko and Yanukovych and they all had huge corruption scandals. Yanukovych who was ousted in 2014 stole 70 billion {dollars} throughout his reign. All of this corruption simply continues to be and bureaucratization simply continues to be just like the legacy of simply many years of occupation and exploitation.
If you actually have a look at it and clearly need to get Gleb’s ideas on this, what the Soviets did is they stole all of the pure sources of Ukraine and they use them for the remainder of their empire. Basically, if you concentrate on a rustic’s sources, like their financial savings account, the Soviets spent down loads of the fossil fuels in Ukraine and they used them. You do not get extra of them. So these issues are very beneficial. They have been utilized by the Soviets to do issues elsewhere on the earth. Fight in Afghanistan or no matter and they have been stolen from the way forward for Ukraine, proper? So it left the nation a lot, a lot depleted however that explains partially the present financial fragile scenario and the corruption and the explanation why individuals may be taken with Bitcoin. I do not know, Gleb, if you need to add any of your personal perspective or private expertise to that backstory?
[18:17] Gleb: Oh, yeah. After the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, no one knew how to do democracy. There is truly fairly a cool query of how to distribute the products which used to be cooperative. Like the crops and the factories that triggered loads of corruption in 1991 the place simply the trickiest individuals are essentially the most not trusted individuals. They began proudly owning them and acquired them from the federal government cheaply by bribing. We have been attempting to learn the way to stay, how to respect the Constitution, and the way to have this authorities. Then individuals in Western Europe do…. nevertheless it was definitely not sufficient time and I’d say, properly, we began getting someway passable outcomes 8 years in the past. At the identical time, individuals realized that we may use… I imply, the parallel system, the grey sector was large on a regular basis. It was by no means decreased. Probably half of our financial system was grey. I imply, not paying taxes and all these things earlier than the invasion. Given that, sure, you can not use PayPal. You can not purchase shares in Ukraine. You have to pay loads of overhead to the dealer.
[19:50] Alex: So mainly, the financial system is simply nowhere close to the place it is. In a spot like America or Germany. Again, on account of these many years of oppression and violence. There’s a saying about dictatorships. Like, if you concentrate on civil society, native enterprise, and commerce, you will have to take into consideration what grows in a desert, proper? So what grows in a desert, which might be a dictatorship scorpion, proper? So there’s loads of crime and extremists and all types of issues that develop beneath the boot of a dictator, proper? So Ukraine had to come out of that. Now, they did have some issues which have allowed them to thrive as a lot as they have thrived, which are attention-grabbing.
Number one which the historical past of constitutionalism. I did not know truly, what Americans in all probability do not know is that Ukraine created a structure that separated the manager, legislative, and judicial branches 70 years earlier than the United States did. So 70 years earlier than the declaration of independence and the Constitution, Ukrainians made their personal which was fairly dramatic. Then later, I feel what’s attention-grabbing to mirror on additionally is no less than for Western Ukraine, there’s this faith which clearly nonetheless is essential however used to be far more essential in individuals’s lives. There have been truly elections within the church, within the western a part of Ukraine. The means that church officers could be chosen was via elections and there was a bit little bit of a democratic course of. This had gone again tons of of years. Whereas on the Russian aspect, the Orthodox aspect, it isn’t elections. It’s by decree. So, these two issues are attention-grabbing. I’m unsure in case you’ve ever considered these, Gleb, or you probably have a
touch upon that earlier than we transfer on.
[21:39] Gleb: Yeah. Yeah. Those are actually good remarks. We normally simply say we wrote the primary Constitution. In normal, yeah, I actually favored what was taking place right here earlier than the invasion. So it is the mixture of the federal government which tries to function the nation however can not do a lot on the similar time. It can not take an excessive amount of energy and it is restricted. It is restricted in taxes, it is restricted within the guidelines. Some are unstated. This is an instance at all times made after I was understanding of the New York workplace. We couldn’t carry a Christmas tree to the workplace as a result of anyone was afraid that there might be a fireplace. So, we weren’t allowed and there might be effective.
In Ukraine, there’ll in all probability be comparable bullshit that exists someplace within the guidelines however not no one enforces it. At the identical time, there is this parallel system the place there’s Bitcoin, there is this progress of eating places, of bars, of companies which function in a… They can do greater than what is normally allowed due to that grey understanding and the weaker authorities. I actually favored the way it labored. We have been getting, yeah, loads of stuff in greater cities and smaller cities till the invasion. Yeah.
[23:09] [ads]
[25:08] Gleb: [crosstalk]
[25:08] Alex: Yeah. So you are have been telling me… Again, so to recap right here in case you’ve simply tuned in with Gleb, Bitcoin developer, he is in Ukraine proper now. He’s been operating Bitcoin humanitarian missions for the previous couple of months. We’ve simply gone via a few of his backstory and a number of the contexts for what’s taking place. When it comes to you and different Ukrainian Bitcoiners, you talked about that when the invasion occurred you posted a hyperlink asking people to help the Ukrainian trigger and other people have been going after you saying you are like a warmonger or no matter and I’d simply remark from what I noticed that I feel lots of people have been unable to separate in their thoughts what’s taking place to Ukraine from possibly their personal authorities’s international position. Just as an American clearly, I watched my authorities invade Iraq, clearly, which was an enormous unlawful invasion. I feel there’s this tendency to consider that something that America does in case you grew up in that age and also you’re questioning and also you assume it is dangerous however you want to give you the chance to disassociate that from individuals’s lived expertise on the bottom, in a spot like Ukraine. So I’d like to hear Gleb speak a bit bit about this. We spent loads of time speaking about it. I attempted to summarize it within the article however simply this concept you can be a Libertarian even and you’ll sympathize and assist somebody defend themselves from being attacked. So would you like to speak a bit bit about this, Gleb?
[26:40] Gleb: Yeah. I do not know even the place to begin. I’m very a lot with American Bitcoiners who do not just like the New York Times or no matter MSM or what it is referred to as. I made a decision to not speak to New York Times after I had a nasty expertise of an interview with them the place they twisted my phrases however I do not assume it is a good means to simply declare that every part they put up is dangerous. I’m completely effective if an American decides to spend their tax cash on American hospitals as an alternative of saving Ukraine. Well, I would favor the latter nevertheless it’s an moral query. I do not query that however I can not stand the Nazi Biolabs, no matter bullshit… I do not keep in mind what else. Do you desire a warmongering factor as a result of Ukrainian Army is closely volunteer-based? Half of it is simply individuals who by no means get correct coaching. They simply realized via expertise over the 8 years defending Ukraine and thru, I do not know, lessons in their spare time. They weren’t geared up on the time of the invasion and I simply thought it was good to assist them. So I make investments a few of my cash into equipping these volunteers.
If American spend a bit extra time, they would in all probability discover a Libertarian dream right here the place there is loads of talks. I keep in mind, or anyone, an enormous thinker stated that he does not need the federal government however when there was a Caribbean disaster, he stated, “Okay, we want the federal government to deal with the Soviet Union and to manage Army in opposition to it.
[28:43] Alex: [inaudible] The Cuban Missile Crisis.
[28:46] Gleb: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[28:47] Alex: The point is, in my opinion, it’s dehumanizing to just comment on Ukraine as an American or whatever and say, “Oh, it is a proxy warfare between my authorities and Russia and we should always simply ignore it or keep out of it or no matter.” That’s insanely dehumanizing of what’s actually happening to people. The average American is very, very, very minimally affected by what’s happening there. You could you can make an argument that what’s happening there has affected global supply chains and has increased inflation but then inflation was already going to happen. This is not like Putin’s inflation. This is inflation that was happening due to the monetary policy of large governments. So, generally speaking, the war is not really affecting Americans that much but it’s completely devastated Ukraine. I don’t know.
Maybe this is a good time, Gleb, just to… You’re from Kharkiv. Tell the people here what is happening in Kharkiv. Have buildings been blown up? Give us a sense of the scale of destruction of the place that you’re from.
[29:52] Gleb: I think it would’ve been enough to say that probably not a single person I know stays there except a couple of old, really old relatives who cannot move out there and I don’t know, maybe 10% of my friends said they’re there to help on the ground to deliver food to those old people or to help armies somehow. Yeah, so not a single person remains there to live a normal life. Yeah, everybody is traumatized. I don’t have any direct friends who died but there is a bunch of friends or her friends. It is impossible to live there now. We get pretty good news from there.
We’re pushing the Russians back in that particular region. So people slowly start talking about coming back towards the fall where they accept the risk of a missile but at least not constantly over a day.
[30:53] Alex: How many people is in Kharkiv before the war?
[30:56] Gleb: About 2 million.
[30:58] Alex: Two million. Okay. So you could think of a large city like Boston or Austin, Texas, or something like that. Now imagine everybody leaving because it was getting… Basically, the ship bombed out of it in and its infrastructure is completely destroyed, with dead bodies on the streets, etc, etc. Then maybe the war changes as Gleb is saying. Maybe the Ukrainians hold it. Okay, but then what? Then you have to rebuild from the rubble, from zero. You have to basically rebuild a whole city. So that’s like the optimistic case for a lot of people like Gleb. The negative case is, of course, Russia takes it and either becomes a new DMZ Zone as you have in Korea, where you have decades of it as just a war zone and no one really lives there. The city is deleted. Or it becomes Putinized and occupied and all the local cultures destroyed. So those would be the worst-case outcomes. But even the best-case outcome for a city, like Kharkiv of 2 million people in just a very, very difficult decade ahead.
So, I think that what happened is that a lot of people just haven’t… It’s weird. I think that they don’t believe anything they read in the media. So, therefore, they somehow think that’s the worst fake or something. This is just insane. I think we need to work on our sense-making. You need to understand that there are other ways to find out what’s happening in Ukraine. You can follow independent journalists. You can join Telegram groups. You can do an open-source investigation. I mean, you can see it yourself and you could just see the destruction by satellite imagery. So you don’t need to trust anybody in particular. You can start to build your own sense of what’s happening. What’s very clear is none of us know the reasons why.
Obviously, the Russian forces tried to take Kyiv, but they lost. They lost the battle of Kyiv. They got pushed back and now they’re trying to take the East and the South, which they might take and which would give them enormous natural resources. It’s important to point out that it is just in the Donbas region in the East and in the South, you have enough coal, and iron and you have steel. You have a huge amount of commodity construction and commodity export infrastructure that Putin wants because as we all know this decade is going to be a decade where fiat money is going to lose value and commodities are going to become more valuable in relative terms.
So obviously Putin wants the machinery of Ukraine for his plans. Maybe you could argue that taking Kyiv was faint. In the end, they only really wanted the east and south. It’s a bit of a stretch but the point is he could still be successful from a military point of view in the East and the South, especially if somehow he can take Odessa. I don’t know if it’s likely but he certainly wants to. There’s all kinds of noise, Gleb, coming from Moldova, all these separatists. It’s clear that he’d like to take Odessa. It’s just not clear that he will take it. I think, in your mind, Gleb, are you preparing? Basically, what do you realize? When you talk to yourself, how do you feel this war is going to grind into a stalemate? Do you think that the Russian forces will be in control of most of the East and South? What’s your sense right?
[34:31] Gleb: I’m a really bad person to ask because I’m always very optimistic. I always think for one month this is over. It’s clear that the Ukrainian people will not accept any middle ground at this point but we’re not sure about Crimea but it’s certainly, everybody is up to taking in the territories before this invasion in February. At least regain and that control is the goal. We would not allow the government to accept some weaker decisions but at least that’s the way it feels now. So I’m just saying it’s really unfortunate that Americans between us don’t see it. The way the army works here at the moment feels like a Libertarian dream because you got to have worse and then it just volunteers to defend their land. I’m telling half of them had not 2 weeks of training before the invasion.
[35:30] Alex: What’s your reaction to the idea that this war is NATO’s fault and not Putin’s? How do you react to something like that?
[35:40] Gleb: Well, I like when Trump said or Ted Cruz, that this is NATO’s fault because NATO should have helped Ukrainian advance so that Putin doesn’t attack that. In that way, I can see the point. Well, and generally speaking, I think Russia is trying to occupy Ukraine in one or another way. It’s a problem. It was happening before the U.S. even existed. So it’s a really long story and it’s really stupid that America Centric thinks that this is somehow related to the current administrator, distracting us from the vaccine or something like that or from the inflation.
[36:31] Alex: Well, basically, as Americans or Western Europeans, we shouldn’t impose our own history and designs and own issues with our own governments on Ukraine. Basically, Russia, as you reminded me, as history unfolded, the Russian empire was trying to conquer Ukraine before the United States existed. So this is not a new thing. Again, if you just look at history, it’s really obvious but at the end of the day, this is an independent nation that even… When the Soviet Union collapsed, it’s important to point out that yes, of course, in Western Ukraine, 99% of people voted for independence. But even in Donetsk and Donbas, 80% or 90%, and even in Crimea more than half of the people wanted to become independent.
This is an independent nation with a long history of being independent and regardless of what Americans think about their government, this thing is going to happen. So now it’s just a struggle of what exactly do we do and how can we help? I guess for you, Gleb, when you look at let’s say people who just ethically don’t want to be involved in the war, right? Maybe I can respect that, of course. So some of them wanted to help you though when you are doing aid. Literally just giving meals to people, giving them a bed to sleep in and these things. So you raised more than $100,000 worth of Bitcoin for this. Can you tell us the specifics of some of the things that you’ve been doing there through Bitcoin which otherwise would have been impossible? It’s not they could have wired you, done a bank wire to you. So, how did Bitcoin make it possible at least from the humanitarian side of things? At least in your work in the last couple of months.
[38:32] Gleb: Yeah. So, while I was talking on Twitter about them accusing me of being a warmonger, I decided to fundraise specifically for humanitarian so that I just get more help into the country. The first missions on the first and second week were just really basic stuff. There was a food shortage in certain places and I got to pay one person to buy something and drive from one city to another because the other city was cut short on basic food. We funded the medical laboratory in Western Ukraine for some health care stuff and I bought several trucks of mattresses for the displaced people to sleep on because when they lost their homes and were driven to the capital or to safer cities, they have nowhere to sleep. They tried to organize public schools but that was not sufficient. Yeah, basically 20 missions of that kind from $1,000 to $10,000 was what I wanted to try to focus on and cover the spots for larger funds.
Well, for the first couple of weeks, they were not here. Stuff like Red Cross was just not available. Later on, they couldn’t cover the smaller tasks. I just try to cover those where I can be more efficient than that.
[40:12] CK: You were telling me…
[40:14] Alex: We’ll just do a couple more topics and then, CK, we can open it up for questions here because I think we’ll have a hard stop in 20 minutes.
So 3 more things I wanted to cover. Can you just talk to us a little bit about things like Alice-Bob, which is a telegram front end for Bitcoin trading? A lot of people might have a hard time understanding how Bitcoin could work in Ukraine today and from what you’re telling me, not only does it work, but it’s actually really easy. There’s a lot of liquidity and you don’t have to use KYC and you can basically trade pretty freely between Fiat and Bitcoin. So can you talk to us a little bit about the tools that you use as well as this restriction that the Ukrainian government recently announced where it would try to restrict people from large purchases of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency? Can you talk a little bit about these two topics for us?
[41:06] Alex: Yeah. In Ukraine, you have this concept of peer- to peer transfers in the banking system. It’s like Venmo or a Cash App but at the protocol level. So the banking system just supports that. You can send, what is it? One thousand dollars or $500 in one transaction without many checks. Nobody cares about that. The text agencies won’t go after you. That’s how a lot of merchants operate here. If you, run a small business, if you sell board games or something, you just gotta use that to accept payments and minimize your taxes for example.
So that’s really how a lot of small Bitcoin exchange operates and the bigger ones, too. You use these peer-to-peer transfers to deposit and withdraw. That always works. That was pretty cool, I would say. People in the US are much more afraid of doing this stuff somehow.
[42:10] Alex: It shows how easy it is. you’re saying you just pop into Telegram and you just load up this app. How exactly would you…? Let’s say I sent you a thousand dollars of Bitcoin right now, Gleb, over the lightning network and you had it in less than a minute, right? How would you sell it into local currency? What would be your method of choice right now?
[42:31] Gleb: Well, lightning is still not that popular here. I got to think a bit more about that. I think you can send…[crosstalk]
[42:37] Alex: Well, so meaning I sent you Bitcoin.
[42:40] Gleb: Mm-hmm.
[42:40] Alex: Let’s just say. Let’s say I sent you a Bitcoin.
[42:41] Gleb: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That would work. I will transfer it to the wallet inside the Telegram bot and exchange it and just send it to my card right away and that would take seconds. That’s superfast.
[42:55] Alex: Right, and it does not require KYC, proper? You do not want to [crosstalk]…
[42:59] Gleb: Yeah, exactly. There is a lot of liquidity because people want to buy Bitcoin so when I sell it, they even give me a positive rate. They’ve taken the Binance exchange rate and they give me more than the Market because there is so much demand for Bitcoin here.
[43:17] Alex: Wow.
[43:19] Gleb: Yeah.
[43:19] Alex: So you helped CNBC the other day, sent 20 bucks from Miami to a Ukrainian refugee living in Poland who is able to easily withdraw from a Bitcoin ATM. As a refugee technology, what are your thoughts on Bitcoin? You told me that you need to rethink your security practices that may be Bitcoiners are like, “Oh, I can simply have my multisig distributed into buildings.” But what if those buildings get blown up by rockets? Wasn’t it necessarily something that you had in your security plan? But in general, what do you make of it as a refugee technology or as a way for people to be able to bring their savings with them when things go badly?
[44:06] Gleb: Well, I think I can certainly speak for the trouble bringing any money out of the country. It is really hard to buy euros here from time to time. Either it is too expensive like the exchange rate or they just say, “We do not have it.” Because the National Bank enforces the exchange rate making it just inefficient for currency exchange companies to operate. So from time to time, it’s hard to get euros and get out of the country.
I would say Bitcoin and these peer-to-peer transactions give you a good tool to bring something out of Ukraine. Then you go and get it out of the ATM in Poland. It’s also super simple. That’s what we did with the CNBC group. Probably, you can tell me how would it be much harder for you as a humanitarian [crosstalk]…
[45:07] Alex: Well, I mentioned it. Yeah, my organization has a mission in Ukraine that we’ve been orchestrating since the war started. I just remember a couple of weeks ago, we had to get money in on a Friday night to someone in Poland to buy a bunch of satellite phones to take them into Ukraine. I think the group was in Ukraine and then they had people in Poland who would help them or whatever. But it was basically even though we were operating and trying to send money to someone in Poland, it’s not like you can just wire the money right away on a Friday night or whatever.
In the traditional system, we would have had to wait days but like, boom. We sent the Bitcoin, they bought the stuff, and the phones were in Ukraine by Sunday morning. Just as a humanitarian tool and obviously better. If you listen to the Head of Kuna Exchange which you obviously worked at, Gleb, years ago and you listen to the government of Ukraine, they will also tell you this, that in a time of war, cash is not necessarily helpful because it can’t teleport and the local currencies being propped up and obviously as you described has lost a lot of value, a lot more value than Bitcoin is lost in the last few weeks let’s put it that way. It’s just really, really helpful as a tool.
[46:22] [ads]
[47:15]: Alex: So two more things quickly. A couple of days before the invasion, you announced your latest basically proposal for the Bitcoin, the coin pool. Do you just want to briefly talk about how much of your time are you still thinking about Bitcoin development? What was it like to release something for Bitcoin and a few hours later, essentially, your country gets invaded?
[47:40] Gleb: Well, I posted it the other day. It works, it helps me to stay sane and just think about Bitcoin and how I can contribute and there is this really interesting discussion on bringing covenants, and protocols to Bitcoin that is going on. So I was just happy that they can participate and probably some of my unpublished work at the time. Yeah, it’s good to have this opportunity to get back to work while somebody is defending you on the other side of the country. I tried to balance the humanitarian and helping the Army and do some work, too.
[48:19] Alex: Yeah. It’s interesting. Two other very prominent Ukrainian developers. One is the guy who created a simple Bitcoin wallet, right? He joined the militia, right? We don’t know where he is. Is he still around? Did he die? Is he alive? Do we know? Any update on that?
[48:36] Gleb: He is undercover.
[48:39] Alex: Yeah.
[48:39] Gleb: So before you post it, I think not many people knew that he is Ukrainian. I think he says undercover but if he died, we would know. So I hope he’s okay.
[48:49] Alex: The other one is a Russian who’s in Moscow who helped design LNURL, right? He wrote a personal blog recently that he was arrested in Moscow for protesting against the war. We don’t have an update from him recently. Who knows? But look, Gleb’s not the only major, major contributor to the Bitcoin project that’s been obviously affected.
The last thing before we just open it up. I just have to ask you. It’s so insane and unimaginable what the Russian army has done in Ukraine. If things like what we saw obviously, out of Bucha, we’re seeing in Mariupol, etc. How do you process that? The things that we read about in history books that they’re not [inaudible] basically are being committed in your country today by the Russians. How do you process that? How do you move forward how do you do your daily routine when you understand that that’s happening not far from you?
[49:57] Gleb: I don’t know what to say. It’s very weird. It’s been like that. Russia invaded Ukraine 8 years ago. We were first stressed and then we just got used to it. Kharkiv where I live safely for over 8 years. The Russian army was like… Well, Russia is 40 kilometers away from my hometown where I lived even after the first invasion 8 years ago. So you just get used to it. This time, yeah, I don’t know. You just learn. I think we’ll take years to recover mentally but you cannot explain it in words.
[50:34] Alex: If the Ukrainian government enforces and managed to keep Putin out and limit his advances, that’s where the stalemate is.
[50:47] Alex: What lessons do Ukrainians take from this? In terms of what to expect from the international community or what not to expect? What lessons do you take for your own personal life and what your career is going to be moving forward now that you’ve seen how the world reacted to this invasion?
[51:06] Gleb: I think Ukrainians are very united now. We don’t really rely on anyone but ourselves so we got to build up the Army in whatever way. I’m gonna probably find some military battalion, like a [inaudible], sending money to them instead of taxes. A lot of Ukrainians gotta use that. I would probably go to the training on my own to just be prepared. We got to build up the economy, too. I probably going to stay around and try to help local businesses or build something on my own. Yeah, there are a lot of plans. Or basically depending on ourselves [crosstalk]…
[51:49] Alex: Yeah. You were just saying that everybody that you know from your old Bitcoin meetups or whatever is doing humanitarian work and you expect that to just be the case for a long, long time. Right? As a country rebuilds, it can take obviously years if not decades. So you’re expecting this to be a part of your life, right? Moving forward?
[52:16] Gleb: Again, I think it’s a bit for in our dream, there is a drive in the market of organizations that accept donations and they are more efficient than the government, the same with the military. So, you just got to build this system where you get a see where to bring your money instead of giving it to the government and expect everything to grow much more efficiently and just fine.
[52:42] Alex: Awesome. All right. So we have like some time here for questions. CK, do you want to do that or what?
[52:48] CK: Yeah, I threw out a bunch of invites, note-taker so far but if anyone wants to come up and ask Gleb any questions, please request and we’ll do some bending and try to get you up. We are going to be closing out in about 8 minutes. I need to get on Bitcoin Magazine live to do an interview there with [inaudible] in there. So that’s coming up on YouTube. But yeah, if anyone wants to come up, ask Gleb a question, ask about what it’s like on the ground, please do. Until then I’m happy to jump in with a question or Alex maybe have more [crosstalk]…
[53:24] Alex: Yeah.
[53:25] CK: I’ll let you ask a few and then please raise your hand if you want to ask Gleb something. Well, I’d love to hear your take on the hook just to move to Bitcoin for a second. What’s your whole take on BIP 119 and on the whole covenant debate? Can you give us your perspective on what’s happening?
[53:43] Gleb: I think Jeremy’s in the room. I think, yeah. Hey Jeremy. I’ve been working on something related to… Well, the coin pool is very related to covenants. It’s my contribution to exploring in breadth. It’s something much requested by some members of the community and well, discussing this topic. I hope that helps to understand something. I’m currently investing my time in comparing it to other protocols at least for myself first so that they can publish an informed opinion. It’s a really interesting topic in Bitcoin decision-making, too. But for now, I’m focusing on the technical aspect and trying to make up my mind, on what’s the move forward with. I will publish something soon. I hope.
[54:33] Alex: Okay. That’s great. CK, do you want to? You should get in there?
[54:38] CK: We actually have someone up on stage.
[54:41] Alex: Oh, great.
[54:42] CK: Yeah. I’m sorry, I cannot pronounce your first name. So I just give you the mike.
[54:47] Lyudmyla Kozlovska: Thank you so much. My name is Lyudmyla, I’m from Ukraine. Actually, I came from occupied Crimea and we as an organization of and Alec Foundation deliver support for Ukrainians. We collected more than $4 million to support actually. Not only civilians but also defenders, and militaries in Ukraine. I want to say that for us, grip towards actually saving Heaven because we were not able to operate and deliver this help without Bitcoin or other coins and we need to work more closely with politicians and with banks especially in Europe because it’s a huge challenge, especially for end-users to be registered on exchanges to be able to operate. To get, for example, if you have donations in cash or in we get donations through transfers then SWIFT, let’s say exchange them in crypto and send them somewhere to pay and back. It’s a huge challenge.
So as NGO, we would be happy to cooperate. We work closely with national parliaments in the EU. I think we need to work more on this issue to be more effective to use crypto for saving lives and for human rights. Thank you so much for all you’re doing.
[56:02] Alex: What’s your perspective on… When you go to your European partners and you say, “Hey Bitcoin or steady cash or no matter is an possibility. What do they say to you? Do they perceive? Are they hesitant? Do they get that it is typically one of the simplest ways to do it?
[56:24] Lyudmyla: The greatest drawback that at the moment Bitcoin and really cryptocurrency associates with Russian oligarchs or somebody who needs to escape private sanctions and naturally exchanges, which step ahead to block this type of individual helped lots to, one is this type of picture however what we want to do is to clarify on a concrete instance why politicians ought to study what it is crypto? Why it is a very useful gizmo? Why it might save lives and why is it pro-human rights? It’s not only for gangsters.
In this case, we want to simply work extra with politicians. We are comfortable to cooperate on this matter with everybody who is open to this type of cooperation. Especially within the matter that European Parliament only in the near past adopted a decision, particular stories which are fairly essential and damaging that might have an effect on the crypto neighborhood in Europe. You know additionally with lobbying of the banking system which is completely in opposition to crypto. In some international locations, you simply will be shut to the account in case you use crypto. If you, for instance, ship cash from… No. Some exchanges to your checking account. You can simply debank afterward. So we want to discuss it publicly. We want to work with politicians about it.
[57:44] Alex: What, out of your perspective… When you watch the American and European media and Central Bankers saying that Bitcoin is silly or evil or ineffective. Why do you assume they assume that? How is that even potential given what you’ve got seen? Is it simply [crosstalk]…
[58:15] Lyudmyla: It’s simply because we do not know. There are no constructive examples of people that are round them, who use crypto for some good, distinguished actions. It was fairly good. Let’s say PR or as an instance method when there was an motion between Belarus Opposition Civil Society which used fairly extensively crypto to, once more, as a secure haven to oppose Lukashenko regime and really to construct a neighborhood to give you the chance to save individuals who are politically persecuted and banned accounts in Belarus, however then it stops. Then once more, it was extra cessation with some fairly creepy personalities. So, after all, it needs to be balanced. Our world is not white and black however we want to work extra to use it as a software as a result of it is actually a really efficient software however on the similar time, it is a lot about studying, assembly, and explaining how to use it correctly and why it isn’t just for gangsters or some type of…[crosstalk]
[59:10] Alex: Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks for that. That’s very, very useful. Gleb, do you simply need to say the final phrase right here after which CK?
[59:17] CK: Yeah. I feel I can go for five extra minutes, we’ve got Olga on stage. Olga, do you wanna ask a query or ask a dialog?
[59:23] Alex: Oh, good. Thanks.
[59:25] Olga: Yeah. Hi guys. It’s my first time right here. I’ve been a part of one of many Bitcoin supporting and Ukraine supporting initiatives. It’s all going beneath the LNP/BP Standards Association and our focus has been on some… Like we’ve got been attempting to discover the center floor between supporting the navy stuff and the humanitarian stuff as a result of navy stuff is certainly closely regulated. This is why it is extraordinarily onerous to help Ukrainians utilizing navy stuff. Even like plates or one thing like that. On the opposite hand, individuals want gasoline, for instance. People want automobiles which are once more extraordinarily regulated. Mattresses, meals, and different stuff are very onerous as Gleb is aware of from his personal expertise. It’s extraordinarily onerous to get nevertheless it’s nonetheless potential to get.
So, what we’ve got been specializing in is communication as a result of my entire household, for instance, comes from Mariupol, and it has been one of many worst locations over the previous many, a few years. [inaudible] out the work. When every part began, we’ve got been specializing in offering the communication infrastructure for that. Starlinks, mesh networks, and all that. Because even you probably have mattresses, even you probably have meals, sure, you’ll be able to survive for a few days. But in case you do not need any communication, particularly if this communication is safe, if it is non-public, and in case your enemy can not monitor it, this is the core. It’s one of many cores that you simply want to maintain on to. So this is what we’ve got been doing.
Regarding what Lyudmyla stated. Yes, after all, many individuals assume that Bitcoin is nearly cash and nobody thinks about it as a protocol. As a protocol of communication, as a protocol of receiving and sending the information. I feel that this is one of many issues right here. No one thinks about that. We have been utilizing Bitcoin and the Lightning Network as a protocol to talk, ship, and obtain info.
I feel in all probability not like [inaudible] I feel that really beginning to speak with the regulators about this, it is a downfall and is a really flawed selection to make as a result of Ukraine as a complete has been one of many first flags. One of the primary international locations which were driving Bitcoin adoption all through all these years. Since 2000, no less than 13, and proper now,
the extra you are speaking with laws, the extra you are speaking with the regulators, the extra restrictions you get. In occasions of warfare, it truly doesn’t profit you a lot however it might truly cut back your energy. It can cut back your potentialities, and it might cut back any methods you can assist regular individuals and common individuals. The extra you speak to regulators, the extra laws they will impose on you, and thus the much less assist you’ll be able to truly present to these individuals.
I do know it is a very unpopular opinion nevertheless it [crosstalk]…
[62:55] CK: No, I feel it is a extremely popular opinion for individuals on this room no less than. I feel that is very legitimate. Thank you each for sharing your very…[crosstalk]
[63:05] Gleb: Yeah. I imply…
[63:06] CK: Yes, go forward. Yeah.
[63:07] Gleb: Their initiative is actually good. Well, I do not know many particulars. I used to be prefer it lined by Bitcoin Magazine or one thing if that is potential. Because in all probability each different day, I inform the way it’s a miracle that the web nonetheless works right here and in Mariupol and elsewhere. They can talk with the outer world. It’s very spectacular and an enormous a part of the… I’m glad that they did a extra artistic method than me simply shopping for meals for displaced individuals within the early occasions.
[63:42] Olga: Yeah. Sorry for interrupting, I noticed one of many flaws when my rifle truly obtained caught. I understood that. Yes, there have been you and another initiatives that have been attempting to present some human prepare to assist like meals, shelter, or something to Mariupol however I perceive one of many flaws as a result of individuals weren’t in a position to talk as a result of one of many principal communication stations have been destroyed. This is why we mainly raised greater than 100,000 in Bitcoin after all, so as to help this, so as to help the communication area, of the entire warfare resistance. We understood that we want guys such as you to talk with individuals in Mariupol, Kharkiv, Kyiv, and in all places across the prepare however you wanted to talk with these people who are in want proper now. So we noticed this chance and we noticed this drawback and we are nonetheless attempting to cowl that factor so as to present some type of bridge between your assist and those who are in want as a result of in any other case, there could be some black field and you wouldn’t give you the chance to attain the people who are in want proper now.
[64:57] Gleb: Thank you. Yeah, I’m very glad you are doing that. Thank you. With the politics stuff, properly, I’m glad Olga is right here. I’m a bit much less essential. I’m glad that anyone tries to speak to them and possibly distracts them or wastes their time. Well, I’m simply attempting to contribute to a parallel system the place I haven’t got to ask permission to use Bitcoin right here.
I do not need to contain in politics. I feel Libertarian events are silly. I feel we should always construct a parallel system the place we do not have to talk with them. While it isn’t potential, possibly we may use some advocacy. I do not know. I feel it is a more durable matter however I simply invite everyone to the mission, attempting to construct a parallel system.
[65:42] Alex: Awesome.
[65:43] CK: All proper.
[65:43] Alex: Well, I feel that is an effective way to shut. Thank you a lot, Gleb. Thank you, CK for internet hosting. You all can take a look at my article, “Currency of Last Resort.” If you need to attain out and help one in all these teams, there are 3 individuals right here on stage who are doing superb work. So thanks. Thanks once more.
[66:00] CK: Yup, Please observe all 3 of those, observe Gleb, and take a look at all of what they’re doing. This recording might be on Twitter in addition to posted to Bitcoin Spaces Live and on Bitcoin Magazines. YouTube will even be transcribing it. So get all of that on Bitcoin Magazine. Thank you to Alex for the time and for organizing this. Thank you, Gleb for answering all of our questions. Read Alex’s article and be properly. Thanks. Bye.
[66:33] Gleb: See everyone. Thank you.
